Do neither. Let it all rest on them. If they step over the line, appeal and give them heck. If you want to leave anyway, why give them power in your life? The only power they have is imagined.
Old Goat
JoinedPosts by Old Goat
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33
To DA myself or to go to JC meeting, that is the question
by Crazyguy ini just got done with another visit at my home with two elders and even though i tried to say very little they took anything they could as a disagreement with them as enough to say they may call a jc meeting after they talk to the rest of the elder body.
so since they are planning on dfing me any way, i'm wondering if i should just write a letter or go through with their meeting?.
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BESTSELLERS--who actually buys these things?
by Terry injust think, rush limbaugh and bill o'reilly are knocking about on top of the bestseller list to the tune of 52,000+ copies each!.
i say, who buys these books?.
i've read killing lincoln, killing kennedy and killing jesus--but, i did it by sitting in the library--not by plopping down $20+ bucks each.. i only read one rush limbaugh book.. i use to be a political junkie but stopped cold turkey exactly 11 months ago.. i no longer watch any political programs or read any political books.. i'm a lot happier for it it, too.. .
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Old Goat
I read four or five books in a week. I'm semi-retired. I buy my books at thrift shops, and I always wonder why someone paid thrity dollars for a book, left it unread and then donated it to a junk store. Unless it's something I need to prepare for a lecture, I never buy new.
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Have You Ever Met...Or KNOW...a GB Member?
by Cold Steel inif so, what is your experience?
i've seen only a few talks by gb members and would like to hear what they're like.
are they personable, aloof, humble, arrogant?
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Old Goat
Yes. They're all dead. I don't know any of the current crop. Knorr had two personaiities. He could be gracious and kind. Or he could be a bastard. Franz thought he was Christ's right hand man. MacMillan was a gem, personable, smart, funny. I"m having an old man moment and can't remember the name of the Scotsman and his wife, both of whom were fun, open people. Both dead now. I met Swingle only once and have no lasting impression.
The current bunch? I have no desire to meet any of them. They're apostates.
Old man moment from above: John Bar and wife.
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Is the WTS backing away from "Bible Tall Tales" ?
by Simon inwhen i was a kid, it seemed like not a meeting went by when you didn't hear about jonah or sampson and other tall tales from the bible.. now though, they seem to have been sidelined.
i guess the rest of the world caught on to the fact that these stories couldn't possibly be true and were so far fetched (yeah, even by bible standards) that they are just treated as 'stories' like aesop's fables.
saying that you believe in them as genuine accounts just makes you look like a crazy zealot.. but the wts is different.
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Old Goat
From Rutherford through Franz "prophetic types" played a significant role in Watchtower theology. Watchtower writers have moved away from seeing every bible event as a prophtic drama. When the commentary on Daniel was written much of that was dropped with the comment that it was historical matter and not prophetic. I rather liked the improbable prophetic applications. They were intertaining.
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Pastor Russell Part Snake Oil Salesman, Tightwad, And Fanatical Religious Writer
by frankiespeakin inhe developed a printing corporation in which he was able to expond on his fanatical bible interpetations in print.
having gained considerable wealth at an early age managing a chain of clothing stores for men, he reinvested his wealth and tried his hand at running a printing corporation in which a dooms day warning figured prominantly.. he kept his readers glued to his fanatical writings by giving dates for when the end of the world would come.
eventually due to his style of writting it wasn't long before his dedicated readers started calling him the faithful wise servant, which in turn increased profitablity of the corporation.
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Pastor Russell Part Snake Oil Salesman, Tightwad, And Fanatical Religious Writer
by frankiespeakin inhe developed a printing corporation in which he was able to expond on his fanatical bible interpetations in print.
having gained considerable wealth at an early age managing a chain of clothing stores for men, he reinvested his wealth and tried his hand at running a printing corporation in which a dooms day warning figured prominantly.. he kept his readers glued to his fanatical writings by giving dates for when the end of the world would come.
eventually due to his style of writting it wasn't long before his dedicated readers started calling him the faithful wise servant, which in turn increased profitablity of the corporation.
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Old Goat
What's flawed is the Watchtower Society myth about his study method. The actual method used by Russell and his associates was no different that that used by writers of Systematic Theology textbooks. Strong's (same as the guy who made the concordance) Systematic Theology is still printed, I believe. Or at least it was still in print when I took a course back in the 1980s. Topical Bibles and topical study is a seminary norm.
Schulz and deVienne (whom I greatly admire for their accurate research) outline in detail which topics Russell et. al. considered and who they talked to and read. The result is more interesting than the Watchtower myth. A recent watchtower suggests they focused on the divine name. That's totally false. I've read the detailed history as presented by Schulz. (As an advanced reading copy of their next book) It presents the entire matter differently and in detail the watchtower seems determined to avoid, probably because it conflicts with the Russell myth they wish to maintain. Russell and his fellows adopted the views of others, primarily of Age to Come - One Faith believers. None of their research was done in isolation. They read contemporary works, wrote to and or visited prominent clergy, including two local Methodists one of whom was a PhD and former professor.
If we fault systematic and topical study, then we fault every theological school in the United States, Canada and Europe. His study method was not at fault, even if we reject his conclusions. In plain fact, almost none of the original Study Groups' conclusions are now held by Watchtowerites. The exceptions would be found in their conclusions on the state of the dead and the trinity. The original group was disunited. Schulz documents the doctrinal divisions among Allegheny believers in the 1871-1876 period. Divisions included the trinity and hell fire doctrines. Some held views Russell did not. Schulz and deVienne cite a printed interview with one of the group.
I'm a well credentialed writer and educator. But I can tell you, having graduated from college or even ordination by some church does not make you a competent teacher or researcher. Among those associated with Russell in those very early years were ordained clergy. Sunderlin, for instance, was a Methodist clergyman. One source says that there were some 125 or so college educated, previously ordained by other churches, ministers associated with the Pittsburgh congregation. I don't know if that's accurate or not. But I do have a short list of clergy who defected from their churches to Russellism. Simply being a credentialed individual does not make you wise or smart. (A. P. Adams, one of Russell's sometime associates, had a master's degree, but if you read any of his books you would find them on the strange side.) Thackaburry was another college educated former clergyman associated with Russell in the earliest years. Russell's mentor, George Storrs, was an ordained Methodist before leaving that church. A Dutch reformed clergyman wrote to and supported Russell and Barbour. Von Zech was educated in the US and in colleges in Germany and was led to similar doctrines as expressed in the Thubingen school of thought. Early Russellites did not lack exposure to higher education, and though the Watchtower wants to present them as independent students, uninfluenced by others, this is simply a myth. Russell comes out looking better without Watchtower mythology than he does within it.
You will want to read their next book, A Separate Identity, when it is released. I understand volume one is due out in the next few months. I've read it in rough draft (except for the last chapter) and as a professional historian myself, I am truly pleased.
You might give up widekpedia and k.chambers silly and uninformed comments in favor of actually reading what Russell wrote. An informed polemicist is better armed.
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Pastor Russell Part Snake Oil Salesman, Tightwad, And Fanatical Religious Writer
by frankiespeakin inhe developed a printing corporation in which he was able to expond on his fanatical bible interpetations in print.
having gained considerable wealth at an early age managing a chain of clothing stores for men, he reinvested his wealth and tried his hand at running a printing corporation in which a dooms day warning figured prominantly.. he kept his readers glued to his fanatical writings by giving dates for when the end of the world would come.
eventually due to his style of writting it wasn't long before his dedicated readers started calling him the faithful wise servant, which in turn increased profitablity of the corporation.
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Old Goat
one additional thought. An industrial rating service rated the Watchtower Society of NY as worth just over a million dollars in the early 1960s. The listing was in a book entitled Million Dollar Companies or something similar. So Rutherford didnt' turn it into a money machine. It's current wealth comes from property carefully bought and owned for ages. The property has appreciated greatly. I think the see this as an unexpected but welcome development.
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Pastor Russell Part Snake Oil Salesman, Tightwad, And Fanatical Religious Writer
by frankiespeakin inhe developed a printing corporation in which he was able to expond on his fanatical bible interpetations in print.
having gained considerable wealth at an early age managing a chain of clothing stores for men, he reinvested his wealth and tried his hand at running a printing corporation in which a dooms day warning figured prominantly.. he kept his readers glued to his fanatical writings by giving dates for when the end of the world would come.
eventually due to his style of writting it wasn't long before his dedicated readers started calling him the faithful wise servant, which in turn increased profitablity of the corporation.
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Old Goat
That Russell inherited business interests from Joseph Russell is an overblown statement. Russell was partners with his dad in one store only. All the rest of his business interests were developed on his own or in partnership with others. Bet you didn't know he owned a furniture store? Oil and other interests too? And that he managed his father's used equipment and scrap iron business? His dad was worth almost nothing at his death. His dad's probate records are available. You'll find that his net worth at death was very small. Other than a contribution to the watch tower, what there was went to his widow. By the time J. L. Russell died in 1897, he had exhausted most of his money, some of it in poor investments.
View him as a crank if you wish. But a huge amount of what you find online is just contrived. Schulz and deVienne are the true exerts in this field. Contact them through their blog. The link to it can be found in an earlier post.
I haven't researched Rutherford enough to answer your question. However when I was in college the first time (decades ago. you probably weren't even born) the society's net worth could be accounted for by compounding interest on a six thousand dollar investment made in 1879. It didn't happen that way, of course. The Watch Tower Hemoraged money in the 1880s, most of it from Russell's own pocket. The claim that Conley financed the society is also overstated. If you saw the historical exhibit in Brooklyn, you would have noticed that his donation was 4000 US Dollars to Russell's initial 7000 USD. By 1882 Conley was already involved in the faith-cure movement and no longer contributing. Russell thought his translation was near in 1881, and he expended money as if it were water. He started selling his shirt and hat stores in 1884, selling them over time. But he continued to invest to raise money for the Society and on which to live. By 1896 or so, his net worth had declined some, but was fairly stable.
He invested in real estate in his own and in the society's name. He had oil interests and turpentine interests. He was defrauded twice by A. D. Jones who turned into a criminal of the worst sort, short of murder and mayhem. Russell invested in a furniture company, in oil drilling and extraction equipment, in typesetting equipment. Online somewhere is the claim he had an interest in a gold mine. The facts do not sustain the claim though there is a story behind it. The names of some of his business partners are fairly easy to find. He had some wall street investments, though they seem to have been small. (Sole source is the Russell v. Russell transcript). If Russell had invested the money derived from the sale of his stores (1884-1896) he would have died a wealth man. He put it all into the publication and circulation of WatchTower literature. He wasn't a charlatan, but he was convinced he had the truth. Sometimes those who believe fervently in something are the most deluded.
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Pastor Russell Part Snake Oil Salesman, Tightwad, And Fanatical Religious Writer
by frankiespeakin inhe developed a printing corporation in which he was able to expond on his fanatical bible interpetations in print.
having gained considerable wealth at an early age managing a chain of clothing stores for men, he reinvested his wealth and tried his hand at running a printing corporation in which a dooms day warning figured prominantly.. he kept his readers glued to his fanatical writings by giving dates for when the end of the world would come.
eventually due to his style of writting it wasn't long before his dedicated readers started calling him the faithful wise servant, which in turn increased profitablity of the corporation.
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Old Goat
You thought that because it's a common claim. It is, in fact, wrong as is so much that is out there. There is a letter (probably on line somewhere) from Macmillan saying the society was broke. They poured money into the Photodrama which was shown at a loss. The society has about 100K on hand in 1916. Not much for an organization that went through about 300K per year in the last years of Russell's life.
Russell was a committed believer. He may have been wrong, but he believed what he taught. Was he a 'nice' man? Sometimes. Was he in it for the money. No. Was he a kook? Not as much of one as people claim, but sometimes. I think miracle wheat is an example. He believed the age of restitution had begun. He look for things such as a cancer cure, "miracle" beans, and miracle wheat as proof.
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Pastor Russell Part Snake Oil Salesman, Tightwad, And Fanatical Religious Writer
by frankiespeakin inhe developed a printing corporation in which he was able to expond on his fanatical bible interpetations in print.
having gained considerable wealth at an early age managing a chain of clothing stores for men, he reinvested his wealth and tried his hand at running a printing corporation in which a dooms day warning figured prominantly.. he kept his readers glued to his fanatical writings by giving dates for when the end of the world would come.
eventually due to his style of writting it wasn't long before his dedicated readers started calling him the faithful wise servant, which in turn increased profitablity of the corporation.
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Old Goat
as an additional note: most everything Russell wrote is online. You'll have a better picture of the man if you read major portions of it.